Så Team-Leaderne, kunne like gjerne, nesten, ha sittet der, med en fem meter lang pisk, for å piske alle, når de gjorde noe feil.
Det blir jo det samme, på den måten.
At både pisking og kjeft, er straff.
Kjeft er en midlere form for straff, enn pisking, det er nok så.
Men prinsippet er det samme.
Og straff, det er ulovlig på arbeidsplassen, som han briten, med nicket hywel, var det vel, skrev på BBC message-board.
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Discussion:
Messages 1 – 18 of 18
Message 1**, 5 Days Ago
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Message 2 – posted by Alan Amp, 4 Days Ago
Dear John, What the heck are you talking about ?
Your problem seems to be that you have a very shallow knowledge of your subject and have not grasped the Nettle as they say.. We want more in depth analysis on the matter from you . Please come back when you can do this.
Message 3 – posted by CanveyCove, 4 Days Ago
A/A, you could ask him to speak simple English.
Message 4 – posted by johncons**, 4 Days Ago
Ok I’ll try to summarise it shortly:
It’s like if you have a boss at work, and you’re working with answering phone-calls.
And, your boss is yelling at you (through the room), that your phone is on wrap-up, and that you have to start answering the calls again, since the five seconds has passed (since the last call).
This, regardless, on if you are doing a worktask that needs to be done, in the meantime.
And the managers are trained to do this, and the method, is call ‘negative reinforcement’.
So I was wondering were one could find more about ‘negative reinforcement’, in conection with management.
Because, when I searched on the internet, I could almost only find it in connection with the training of animals, like dogs and horses.
So, I was wondering if anyone knew, where ‘negative reinforcement’, fittet in, when it comes to the field of management theory.
Since I havn’t heard about this method (negative reinforcement), in the management/organisation mudules at had at school and uni-level.
And they didn’t teach about ‘negative reinforcement’ on the courses in practical management etc., that I participated on, when I was working as a store manager in Norway.
So I was wondering if anyone knew more about the use of ‘negative reinfocement’ in management?
I haven’t lived that long in Britain, so it’s possible that I’ve done a lot of spelling mistakes etc.
But please just ask if there is anything that needs to be made more clear, and I’ll try to explain as good as I can.
Message 5 – posted by Rob***, 4 Days Ago
Probably!
Message 6 – posted by CanveyCove, 4 Days Ago
This is like me playing music, the right notes, for above put words, but seem to be in the wrong order. Where did you learn English? Not here.
Message 7 – posted by hywel, 3 Days Ago
I think you mean punishment and not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when I tie an iron ball to the talon of my pigeon and remove it only when he has pecked all the crumbs from my magnificent beard.
Message 8 – posted by pompomwhiting, 3 Days Ago
Perhaps the N.H.S. wasn’t so bad after all.
Pom thinks that I.T. personel deserve their big wage and will not be tempted to go on a course.
Message 9 – posted by johncons**, 3 Days Ago
I think you mean punishment and not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is when I tie an iron ball to the talon of my pigeon and remove it only when he has pecked all the crumbs from my magnificent beard.
Quoted from this message
Well couldn’t this be similar with that they shout at the representatives, and only stop, when they answer the phones within five seconds?
At least the team-leader in the meeting, refered to it as reinforcement, which they had learned at team-leader training.
Message 10 – posted by johncons**, 3 Days Ago
This is like me playing music, the right notes, for above put words, but seem to be in the wrong order. Where did you learn English? Not here.
Quoted from this message
Well it’s a bit of topic I guess, but since I’ve started explaining about it, it’s from school in Norway, summer school in England, uni. in Sunderland and work in Liverpool.
Message 11 – posted by johncons**, 3 Days Ago
Perhaps the N.H.S. wasn’t so bad after all.
Pom thinks that I.T. personel deserve their big wage and will not be tempted to go on a course.
Quoted from this message
Well, it was a minimum wage job, at around £5 an hour.
Message 12 – posted by Devon_Dumpling, 3 Days Ago
John, I’m a team leader in a call centre down south.
If I treated my crew like that they’d be gone within minutes. I’ll carry on treating the like normal people, works wonders
Message 13 – posted by johncons**, 3 Days Ago
I’ve checked the pay now by the way.
Just so that I’m not saying anything wrong here.
It was 5.25/hour as Randstad employee, and 5.85/hour as Arvato staff.
(Randstad staff could get paid for working over-time, but for Arvato staff only interflex).
(Just so that I’m not writing anything wrong, because I don’t know exactly to the nearest pence, what the minimum-wage is at the moment. And I guess this pay is really a bit above minimum-wage, so I thought I’d try to write it accurate. The figures are by the way from last year).
Message 14 – posted by PlainAshington, 3 Days Ago
Why didn’t you just say it was agency work and you got shouted at for not grafting beyond the humanly possible?
Perfectly normal in the British work place.
wik.ed.uiuc.edu/inde…
Message 15 – posted by hywel, 3 Days Ago
At least the team-leader in the meeting, refered to it as reinforcement, which they had learned at team-leader training.
Quoted from this message
Well the ‘team leader’ was using the word incorrectly. This team leader training sounds pretty cowboyish. No management theory would advocate this kind of behaviour. It is bullying and illegal.
Message 16**, 3 Days Ago
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Message 17 – posted by johncons**, 48 Minutes Ago
I thought I’d just add a short anecdote, while I was at it, so to speak.
While I was working at Arvato, in the Cunard building, I took this picture, with a view of the Mersey.
So I was just wondering about the sculptured picture, on the wall of the Cunard building, if anyone knew which ancient god or person this sculpture is of?
Thanks very much for the help in advance!
farm2.static.flickr….
Message 18, 37 Minutes Ago
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.
Posted by johncons at 09:16 0 comments
F.eks. kunne lederene på Arvato.
De sa, på den tiden jeg begynte der.
At vi skulle prøve å logge under samtalene, (og sette kunden på vent).
For å få opp samtaletiden.
(For da tjente Arvato mer penger).
Men senere, på buzz meeting, juni 06, (et snaut år senere).
Da skulle vi redusere samtaletiden på samtalene da.
Og uansett, hvis team-leader klagde på deg.
Så hadde ikke organisasjonen noe klart mål å jobbe etter.
Så hvis du sa, at du ville ikke logge under samtalen, fordi du ville fokusere på samtalen.
Da kunne TL-er si at lav samtaletid var viktig.
Så da var det feil å ikke prioritere lav samtaletid.
Så var det feil å ikke prioritere å unngå feilaktivering, på bekostning av kundeservice.
Men andre ganger kunne sikkert kundeservice være viktig.
Så hva egentlig poenget med jobben var.
Det kan man lure på.
Fordi, kundene kunne vel like gjerne bare ha aktivert over internet, eller de kunne ha pratet med en automatisk telefonsvarer.
Et menneske kan jo skjønne ting, og bruke aktiv lytting, og spørre kontrollspørsmål.
Men det var vanskelig, å tenke selv i jobben.
Når organisasjonen ikke hadde noe klart mål.
Så da må jo de som er over deg, tenke for deg da.
Og det strider mot det vi lærte på Rimi, av Bekkevold, at de vil ha folk som tenker selv, og tar ansvar, i Rimi.
Og det som nevnes i Bertelsmann Essentials.
At flest mulig beslutninger, skal tas av den som jobber med den aktuelle arbeidsoppgaven.
Så her mistenker jeg at det kan være noe lureri med hele konseptet.
Med aktivering over telefon.
Siden det ikke er noe klart felles mål for organisasjonen.
Og en annen ting jeg ikke liker ved konseptet, Microsoft Produktaktivering over telefon.
Det var, at vi i hvertfall, på vår aktivering, hadde det sånn, at lederne ble opplært til å bruke, reinforcment. Altså ‘forsterkning’, som ledelsesmetode.
Det er noe lignende som brukes i hundeoppdrett.
Og det går på, at hvis hunden gjør noe feil, så skal du straffe den. (Med kjefting f.eks.).
Og det brukte Arvato team-leaderne.
‘Michael du er på wrap-up’, sa/ropte de hele tida.
(Hvis agenten (som de kalte det, representanten), ventet mer enn 5 sekunder, før han/hun hadde logget samtalen, og svarte en ny samtale.
Da var det leder-rutine, å skrike kjeft.
Så det var på en måte dressering av Microsoft-aktiverere da.
Med samme metoder, som blir brukt til dressering av hunder.
Og dette er også ulovlig i følge britisk lov.
Fant jeg ut, når jeg tok opp dette på BBC’s message-board.
Jeg har prøvd å få hjelp av ‘legal aid’, altså fri rettshjelp i Storbritannia, til å få igang en rettsak mot Arvato, men jeg har ikke klart å få noe hjelp, selv om jeg har holdt på et års tid vel nå.
Så det er nok noen som driver å legger hindringer i veien her osv.
Kan det virke som.
Jeg skal se om jeg finner det som ble sagt på BBC’s message-board.
Man hva som egentlig er hensikten med jobben vi hadde.
Det kan man vel egentlig lure på.
Var det stoppe flest mulig ulovlige aktiveringer?
Var det å ha kortest mulig samtaletid?
Var det å ha best mulig kundeservice?
Var det å ha kortest mulig ventetid for kundene?
Det var ikke noe klart mål for jobben vår.
F. eks. når jeg jobba i Rimi, så hadde vi et mål.
Høyest mulig overskudd. (Det er vel standard).
Assistent Hilde, på Nylænde i 93/94, sa det sånn, at ‘vårt mål er å få fler og mer fornøyde kunder’.
Noe sånt var det hun sa.
Og det sa hun på personalmøte.
Elisabeth, butikksjefen, sa ikke noe om sånne ting så ofte.
Men da hadde organisasjonen (Rimi Nylænde), et klart mål å jobbe etter.
Men på Microsoft produktaktiveringa, så var det ikke sånn.
Forts.
Hun Augestad.
Hun var forresten sånn.
At når jeg spurte, når jeg var ny der.
Om reglene for aktivering osv., så sa hun, nei vi bare slipper igjenom alt vi.
Også hadde de sånn triks.
Når de var lei av å svare telefonene, og TL-er hadde gått hjem tidlig.
Når kunden ringte (på den tiden før vi mistet noen av hjelpe-programmene).
Så kom installasjon-id-en, opp på skjermen.
Så bare satt dem kunden på hold.
Så fikk kunden høre pausemusikk.
Så gikk dem gjennom noen skjermbilder da. (men spurte ingen kontrollspørsmål.)
Så fikk de opp bekreftelseskoden.
Så var det et program som leste opp den koden, så satt de på det opplesningsprogrammet.
Og da forsvant kunden fra linja da.
Så det var smart triks, hvis man skulle aktivere uten å prate med kunden og spørre kontrollspørsmål.
Så det var nok ikke så bra holdning osv. i firma.
De bare slapp gjennom alt sa dem.
Og hun, og en annen som jobba der.
Jeg husker ikke hva hun heter nå.
Men da jeg begynte der, i september 05.
Så var det en Senior Team-Leader der, som het Kevin da.
Som sluttet etter en tre-fire måneders tid kan det kanskje ha vært.
Og sendte en lang, kjedelig avskjeds e-post.
Han kallte de for ‘pølsa’ da.
Margrethe og dem.
Mens han hørte på.
Men han var jo britisk da.
Pølsa ditt, og pølsa datt.
Med negativt tonefall.
Jeg skjønte ikke så mye av det i starten, når jeg jobba der.
Men nå lurer jeg litt da, og synes det kanskje var litt rart navn, å kalle STL.
Så jeg vet ikke om det var noe som foregikk der eventuelt.
Det er vel kanskje ikke umulig nei.
Nå driver jeg å lager mat her, så kom jeg på noe rart.
Og det var at.
Det første snaue året, som jeg jobba på Arvato.
Så jobba jeg jo der gjennom Randstad employment agency, altså vikar-byrå.
Og da, da hendte det, at de sendte e-poster.
Hun Joanne, m. fl.
Og de ville ha National Insurance Number, som er noe ala personnr. i Norge, bare at det er for syketrydg og pensjon osv. da.
Sånn gjennom myndighetene i Storbritannia da.
Også ville de ha flere referanser enn Skodvin, fra når jeg jobba i Rimi.
Når jeg begynte på Arvato, august 05, så jobba det en norsk dame der, som heter Margrethe Augestad.
Og hun, jobba i Rimi Norge/Hakon/Ica-gruppen tidligere.
Så, når jeg dro til Sunderland, for å studere, september 04.
Så hadde jeg med nøkla fra W. Thr. gt.
For jeg hadde vært oppe hele natta og vaska og rydda leiligheten osv.
Og jeg var litt trøtt, så jeg tok med nøkla i tilfelle jeg glemte noe.
Så ringte jeg, fra Gateshead, til Rimi Norge, i slutten av september 04, må det vel ha vært.
Og den jeg fikk prate med da, om nøklene til Rimi leiligheten, det var Margrethe Augestad.
Og det fant vi ut, en av de første dagene på Arvato da.
Siden begge hadde jobba i samme firma i Norge.
Hun var også venninne av hun finske Taru, som jeg tok over rommet til, i Mandeville St., når hun skulle flytte til Irland, for å jobbe for et finsk firma der.
Hun ville ikke gi det nye telefonnr. til dem.
De andre som bodde i Mandeville.
Hun bare forklarte at hun skulle få nytt telefonnr., når hun flytta til Irland.
Så det er nok mulig at noe har foregått i Mandeville St.
Augestad, bodde samme veien, som jeg gikk, for å ta bussen til Walton og Mandeville St.
Eller jeg pleide å handle på Tesco, og det var samme veien.
Maten ble borte i fryserne i Mandeville St., så man måtte nesten handle hver dag.
Jeg klagde på hun Melissa & Co. fra Mandeville St., til Augestad.
Men Augestad likte enda dårligere hun Janine.
Og, da vi gikk gjennom byen, etter jobben, kanskje i noe sånt som november 05.
Så prata vel jeg om, at det var rart, at Randstad sendte så mange e-poster om at de ville ha referanser fra Rimi i Norge.
Eller om hun spurte meg, hvilke distriktsjefer jeg hadde hatt i Norge.
Og så nevnte jeg de da.
Så sa jeg, at jeg visste ikke hvem av dem jeg skulle føre opp, for jeg stolte ikke på noen av dem.
Så nevnte jeg at jeg hadde hatt Neteland da, som distriktsjef, før Skodvin, altså på Kalbakken.
Men jeg sa det, at jeg trodde ikke at det var noe poeng å føre opp henne som referanse i Norge til Randstad.
Jo, før opp henne, sa Margrethe lurt da.
Så hva som har foregått her.
Det kan man kanskje lure på.
Det lurer jeg på i hvertfall.
Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 6:30pm
And after the meeting, at 11.30, was finnished around 12.30, or something like this.
Then I went to lunch, I think I must have done.
And then, when I got back from lunch.
Then, after a few hours, I sat across the table from Mr. Tippins.
Then I could see Mr. Tippins standing up from his seat, and almost running towards a collegue, in the direction of the reception, from were we sitting, close to the windows facing the Mersey.
This was a guy in his late twenities, or early thirties maybe.
Short hair I seem to remember.
Quite heavily built.
I think about the same height as Tippins, but I can’t remember for sure.
Delete
Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 6:31pm
I think Tippins signaled to the other collegue.
And the collegue, hurried towards Tippins.
They chattet/whispered a few words, in a hurry.
And they returned to their seats.
Delete
Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 6:36pm
When I returned from the meeting.
Then Eoin, was sitting on my seat, next to Steinsland.
And the chair was very warm, I think it was eaven a bit sweaty maybe.
So maybe he was nervous.
He was some kind of meeting with Steinsland, it seemed to me.
Delete
Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 6:42pm
More from the meeting at 11.30 am, the same day:
http://johncons.angelfire.com/blog/index.blog/1293680/enclosure-3/
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 6:58pm
So if the person Tippins was speaking to, was an undercover police agent?
Since Steinsland, said in a note, that, it was a mystery, what the representatives in the Training Team were doing, since they were only sitting on their seats all day long.
Delete
Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:00pm
Note regarding what Steinsland said on 23/11/06 (In Norwegian):
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=35596&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=2707605153&aid=-1&id=1059338080&oid=2707605153#pid=34064&id=1059338080
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:01pm
Notes from when Mr. Tippins stole my seat, from 22/11/06 (In Norwegian):
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=35596&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=2707605153&aid=-1&id=1059338080&oid=2707605153#pid=35298&id=1059338080
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:06pm
Because, when Steinsland, commented on the Training Team, on 23/11/06, then she pointed in the direction, to where Tippins were talking with the collegue, in a hurry, on 28/11/06, in the afternoon.
Delete
Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:26pm
And after work this day, 28/11/06.
At around 4 pm.
Then I bring with me the shift-plans home, from the folder at Arvato.
Then I go home, and gets some sleep at the coach.
Since I had been up quite late, the night before, since I was preparing, for the meeting at 11.30 am.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:27pm
When I wake up, in the evening.
Then I write this summary, from the unsheduled meeting at around 10 am.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:28pm
And then I think about all the strange episodes.
With the STL lying.
With Eoin sitting on my chair.
With Rusby and Tippins covering up for Baines, in the meeting at 11.30 am.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:31pm
And with Tippins conspiering, with the collegue, in a hurry, in the afternoon.
So it was a lot of strange things going on.
I thought they were mafia, after lunch.
I almost went insane.
I started huming, ‘running in the family’ etc.
I was in a state from the meeting at 11.30., and the other strange episodes.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:35pm
So I brought the summary, from the picture.
And I also think these two summaries:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=35590&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=2707605153&aid=-1&id=1059338080&oid=2707605153#pid=35301&id=1059338080
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:37pm
To the St. Annes police-station.
The two summaries in the links, I had also brought there two days earlier. (On 26/11/06).
Because I was there first on 25/11/06, but then I didn’t know the name of the TL who had been following me home after work the same day.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:38pm
So we agreed I would go back there one of the next days, with the name.
So then I went back to St. Ann’s police-station, on 26/11, with the name of the Team-Leader.
But the I was, more or less, thrown out from there.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:40pm
But, on 28/11, I spoke with the ‘ginger’ police constable there.
And he had a look at the summary from the picture, and I think also the summary from the meeting with Sletvold, from 26/11, regarding the problems with the Bon Prix Team-Leader following me home after work on 25/11, etc.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:41pm
And then it was agreed, that I would call the police about an hour later.
To get the log number.
And then I called back, around midnight.
And then I got adviced to bring the problems up with the Managing Director.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:42pm
I thought, that it would maybe be a bit irrisponsible of me, to go back there.
Since I thought they were mafia.
So I didn’t think it was a good advice.
So I decided, to contact Arvato and Bertelsmann in Germany.
And the Times, Liverpool Echo, and VG and Nrk in Norway.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:44pm
Which I did.
I really had a rest-day on 29/11.
But I thought I had to try to deal with this responsible.
I thought it was a lot of things that were wrong in the company from before.
Thats why I had the meetings with Sletvold, in this summary:
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:47pm
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=35301&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=2707605153&aid=-1&id=1059338080&oid=2707605153
I wanted to, when these files were finished.
To send them to the newspapers etc., if I needed to, to get some focus on the problems in the company.
I had some problems with some mafia in Norway, but the Norwegian (‘federaland’ – Kripos) and Oslo police, just hang up the phone, etc, and didn’t help me.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:47pm
So I first thought, that I could use the files to get some contact with some journalists in Norway maybe.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:48pm
To maybe also get help with the problems with the Norwegian police.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:49pm
But later that automn, then there were problems in the company with Riski and Wallin, that I worried about, what went on with.
And also, the new Norwegian agents, Jørn and Helene.
I think acted very strange, and asked a lot of questions all the time.
So I thought maybe that this was something to do with mafia etc.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:51pm
But I was very overworked, so I could have got it wrong.
But then, when Baines followed me home.
And I got the call from the police, around midnight, between 28/11 and 29/11.
Then I decided, to send the summaries from the problems with Baines, to the newspapers.
In stead of the summaries from the meetings with Sletvold, on 30/10, and 11/11.
Delete
Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:53pm
Since, the new problems with Baines etc, did, that the writing of the summaries from the meetings on 30/10 and 11/11, was delayed.
And Baines, on 25/11, was standing, and staring at me, (in a way I thought could seem threatening).
And this was while I was writing the summaries from the meetings from 30/10 and 11/11, on my work computer, inbeween the calls.
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:54pm
So I thought it seemed like someone would make problems for the writing of these summaries.
And it was a lot of issues that were brought up in these meetings.
So the summary ended like this:
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:56pm
(In the finnished version)
http://johncons.angelfire.com/blog/index.blog/1293688/enclosure-7/
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Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 7:57pm
So I went to work, on 29/11.
Even if it was my restday.
To send some e-mails, to the newspapers.
And have a meeting, with the Managing Director.
Delete
Erik Ribsskog wrote
at 8:06pm
I was there at around 8.10 in the morning on 29/11, starting to writing the e-mails.
And then, there was a big 200 gram Norwegian ‘melkesjokolade’ (milk chocolate), laying between me, and Steinsland.
Vivan Morris, got to work at 9, or something, I think.
Makeing a point out of, that I had gotten a milk chocolate.
But I just said it wasn’t mine, since it wasn’t.
It had a price-tag, or some kind of tag, on it, saying ‘4’.
I thought it was the price in pounds, from the Swedish church.
And that it had something to do with O’Shaugnessy on the campaign, who was often offering sweets and cookies etc., that he had bought in the Churchs shop, to the people working on the campaign.
http://johncons.angelfire.com/blog/index.blog/1293699/enclosure-14/
